Posts by Country Joe

62

Working on a Logical Problem

by dunsscot in

jw
friends

dear good people of j-w.com,.

i am sitting in my office working on a problem and i need your help.

do you think that these sentences are true?.

Hey Duns,
Why are you pontificating on such kindergarten pedantics like, "Is Water H2O", when you could, in happenstance, be spending much more quality time perusing the much more sublime sophistry of,
"The Watchtower is a False Prophet"
"A False Prophet is the Watchtower"

To answer your question so as that you can alternatively go and do something FAR more constructive, like, eat, drink, sleep, build your own shack, etc; My most humble yet, no doubt, somehow opinionated answer to BOTH of your Water questions is,
YES!!!
Not to be a Party Pooper, Duns, but have you EVER considered the possibility, that if you don't come back to Earth on occasion, you might go and do a Kierkegaard and THINK Yourself into an INSANE ASYLUM?
Joe (Wondering just WHAT in the HELL did I just say, and DAMN this Guiness is some GOOD SHIT)

175

Do you want the real truth or not?

by Jason in

jw
friends

on this website there seems to be so many lies and so little actual truth.

is this supposed to be a place to get answers or confuse the hell out of truth seekers?

well, for you seekers out there, if you find the truth on this site it'll be a major fluke.

Country Joe

Hey Jason,
Just checking in to see how you are doing with your research on the Flood with the evidence we gave you.
In your last post to REM, you were still tripping on ENTROPY.
So what did you think of the Bristlecone Pine?
Pretty COOL, Eh What?
Who woulda guessed there was something alive on the planet for almost 5000 years.
Does it tend to mess with your head since you take bible chronology and stories so LITERALLY?
Do you think that Dendrochronology just another Pseudo-Science?
Do you suppose these guys sitting around counting tree rings all day are just wasting their time?
I've been interested in Dendrology for years and had heard of the Bristlecone Pine before, but Folks like you and the JWs with your whole Young Earth Creation trip is fairly new to me.
So, imagine my surprise when some Folks beat on my door all dandied up in their Sunday Go To Meetins and informed me of the fact that Adam and Eve were created only a paltry 6000 years ago, and in fact, even had some sort of big Birthday Bash for them around 1975, and Noah's Flood was only another paltry 2000 or so years after that.
Really? I says. How do you figure that?
They say! Why, it says so right here in this here Bible we got and are going to give you a free copy so you can read it for yourself along with some other FREE literature that will make it all Crystal Clear for you just in case you don't understand something, and if you want, we will even be happy to hook you up with a free bible study with some folks especially trained to teach the bible to folks like you that don't know nothing.
So I says, Thats cool and all but I got me a bible around here somewhere.
But then they say, OH NO! You don't want to use YOUR Bible cuz its all full of errors. You'll be wanting OUR Bible cuz we fixed all those errors and its the only bible on the planet that has it all right.
OH Yeah? I says. Well, Just before you guys got here, these other guys came around all dandied up looking real sharp and pretty much like ya'll and they gave me this ole book that they say is the key to my Salvation. About some guy named Moroni. Ever read that one?
OH NO! They say. You don't want to read THAT ONE. That one will get you KILLED.
WOW! Really? I says. Might be a good idea not to read it then, EH What? But, How do I know reading YOUR hand outs won't get me killed either?
Well, they say, It just can't! cuz Jehova is ALL loving and mercifull and loves you dearly and He wants us to help Save you.
OK! But you just got done saying that this Jehova feller killed off the ENTIRE planet only 2000 years after making Adam and Eve except for 8 folks and a bunch of animals which was only 4000 years ago? Now, That don't sound terribly loving to me.
Right! they say. Jehova don't like wicked people and they were ALL wicked except for Noah.
Hmmmm! I says. Sounds to me like they were just doing regular stuff like eating, drinking and getting married. And there ain't a whole lot of wicked Little Kids. How come THEY weren't on the Ark.
Well, they say. Thats what the bible says so it MUST BE TRUE.
Well, I says. Theres this old tree out west somewhere called the Bristlecone Pine that was 4950 years old when some Idiot cut it down back in 1964. So, are you NOW saying that this Jehovie feller kilt off EVERYTHING on the planet EXCEPT 8 folks a bunch of animals and ONE TREE?
Well! they say. We got to go now. But we'll come back later to see how you liked our FREE literature and we'll give you a whole bunch more so ALL your questions will be answered and hopefully you will see that we are the NEW ARK and you better hurray up and READ it all so that YOU too can get On Board so that you will be Saved just like Noah when the END comes which is just about any day now.
So, I says, Are there any animals on this NEW ARK of yours?
UHHHHHHH! They say. NO! Just people.
You mean I can't bring my dogs?
UHHHHHHH! NO!
Then why would I want to get on YOUR Ark, I says. Maybe I'll just make my own.
We REALLY got to go now. BYE!
OKAY! BYE Bye!

Bye Jason!
Joe

175

Do you want the real truth or not?

by Jason in

jw
friends

on this website there seems to be so many lies and so little actual truth.

is this supposed to be a place to get answers or confuse the hell out of truth seekers?

well, for you seekers out there, if you find the truth on this site it'll be a major fluke.

Country Joe

Hey Jason,
In case you haven't already; READ Moxy's post on "Bristle Cone Pines" and the links supplied by Nic.
Just read through a lot of it and a very interesting read.

Moxy asks if the Bristlecones can survive a year underwater.

Note that the OLDEST ONE, "Prometheus" was cut down in 1964 by some CLOWN named Donald R. Currey cuz his bore bit got stuck in the tree AFTER finding out from other samples that they were drilling into a 4000 year old tree and, supposedly, Prometheus was cut down with permission by yet an even More IDIOTIC Bureaucrat at the Forest Service Office.

Presummed Conversation between D.Currey and U.S. Forest Service:

D. Currey:
"Say! I was drilling into a REALLY BIG Bristlecone Pine tree up on yonder ridge when my drill bit got stuck. According to some other samples we collected, it peers to be in the neighborhood of 4000 years old which is on a par with some Bristlecones in California. Well, Sir, this is my ONLY drill bit and its starting to get Mighty Chilly up there on the ridge and I got to head back to the University of North Carolina real soon so I can finish my Doctorate Thesis on Ice Age Glaciers. So would ya'll mind if I cut down this old tree so I can retrieve my drill bit and head back home?

U.S. Forest Service Moron:
"Yeah Sure! Go Ahead! No Promlem! Be Careful up there! Did you sign our Guest Book?"

D. Currey:
"OK! Thanks! Yes I did! See Ya Later!"

Naturally, Prometheus turned out to be 4950 years old and HAD the distinction of being the OLDEST LIVING THING on the planet.

Back to the original question:
Could "Promethius" and its relatives like Methusala etc. survive being underwater for a year?

Given the criteria that Bristlecones seem to ENJOY Life under, in other words:

Dry Climate: 10" to 12" of precipitation annually most from winter snow. They thrive on a LACK of water and are genetically engineered to live that way.

Poor Soil: They seem to like Dolomite, an alkaline calcarous substrate of LOW NUTRIENT.
In other words, They grow in places almost NOTHING ELSE wants to.
Other pine species will grow AROUND the Dolomite formations, but only Bristlecone will grow IN IT.

High Altitude: they like it up high around 11,000' elevation or so.
Of course that still leaves about 18,000 feet of water ABOVE that IF you believe the Flood was above Mt. Everest.
So what is the water pressure at 18,000 ft of depth? I tend to think that alone would KILL EVERYTHING that was NOT designed to be at that depth.

Other Factors to consider:
They have a SHALLOW root system that is EASILY damaged by impact and EROSION.
So WHAT would FLOOD WATER do to the roots as it drained off, presuming a flood that would even reach the 11,000 foot level?

Recovery from soil disturbance is VERY SLOW.
Do Flood waters at any time EVER disturb ANY soil?

Therefore we can surmise that this ONE TREE ALONE at 4950 years of age SURPASSED the biblical flood and yet SURVIVED.

Now, WHAT does that say about the Biblical Flood?

Thanks Moxy and Nic(and anyone else) for contributing info.

Joe

175

Do you want the real truth or not?

by Jason in

jw
friends

on this website there seems to be so many lies and so little actual truth.

is this supposed to be a place to get answers or confuse the hell out of truth seekers?

well, for you seekers out there, if you find the truth on this site it'll be a major fluke.

Country Joe

Hey Jason,
Does "supposedly" mean that you DO believe there was NO DEATH before the Fall of Adam?
Presumming that you DO believe that supposition, lets see where we can go with that.
BEFORE "The Fall" then, when Adam got the job of naming ALL the animals, everybody lived as one Big Happy Family?
In other words, the Lions and Bears hung out with the Sheep and Goats eating grass and berries?
Even T-Rex had a liking for bushes at this time and NEVER considered Brontosaurous ribs tartar for an late evening snack before racking out from a long day of eating those previously mentioned bushes?
Interesting!
How Idylic! Kinda like a JW version of the "New Earth" but with T-Rex and Company.
I wonder if Rex and the other Raptors, and whatever else there was that had lots of teeth, will be invited to the "New Earth Ball and Barn Dance"
Of course, they will have to go back to eating bushes.
I wonder what they would think of this "New Earth" if everything was off limits except bushes.
I reckon ONE thing we will STILL have in this "New Earth" is plenty of Animal, Dino and People POOP. Eh What?
Then I suppose Flies and Dung Beetles will have to get invited to help clean up the mess.

Where was I?
Oh Yeah! One Big Happy Family! Right!
Now Comes "The Fall"!
And so does Death, crashing The "Big Fall" Party.
And of course, all this was happening in the neighborhood of 6000 odd years ago, Right?
OK! Now, 2000 years later, enter Noah and his infamous Ark.
So then, in the span of 2000 years, "Horizontal Evolution" allowed the predatory animals to develop specialized teeth and claws designed for tearing flesh to shreds not to mention inventing some new enzymes designed for digesting all that meat and maybe even loosing a stomach or two that used to be used for digesting grass and bushes?

Meanwhile, other animals and bugs are developing chemical defense systems such as posessed by Skunks and Bombadier Beetles and Tree Frogs?
Not to mention all the methods and systems for hunting and defense that Marine critters can come up with?

And within the span of ANOTHER 2000 years, they Evolved into an even GREATER array of diversification than those Prototype Species, that were on the Ark to "save space"?

COOL!
Of course 2000 and even 4000 years in perspective of Geological Time Spans is around the equivalent of a NANOSECOND.
That "Horizontal Evolution" must of been REALLY Truckin, Eh What?

Got another problem thats been bugging me.
I don't see any references for Adam to name any "clean" and "unclean" animals.
Skipping up to Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 we find a list of animals designated as "clean" and "unclean", right?
We even find in Lev. 11:27 that animals that walk on all fours that walk on their "PAWS" are also "unclean", like Bears, Cats and the Canine families and I suppose even Elephants and the Brachiasaurs like Brontasaurous, Right?
OK! Jumping back to Gen.6:19 we see that TWO of everything is suppose to go on the Ark, Yes?
But NOW, in Gen.7, all of a sudden and SEVEN DAYS before the rain starts up, we got Noah being told to take SEVEN of every kind of "CLEAN" animal, a male and its mate AND TWO of every king of "UNCLEAN" animal a male and its mate and also SEVEN of every kind of bird, male and female."

Don't you think that is one HELL of an AFTERTHOUGHT with only SEVEN DAYS to go before the BIG EVENT?
Note there was no mention of "clean" and "unclean" BIRDS until AFTER the Flood and Noah is seen in Gen.8:20 making an alter and "taking SOME, apparently Unlucky number SEVEN, of ALL the CLEAN animals and CLEAN BIRDS" and making one Hell of a BARBEQUE for "burn't offerings".
Of Course, Deuteronomy 14:11 tells us which birds are "UNCLEAN", Right?
So whats WRONG with this Picture, Jason?

I can see the meat eaters getting in on the Big Barbeque and resultant leftovers, but surely after such a HUGE Flood, there won't be ANYTHING growing in the Plant and Trees departments for the Herbivores for quite a while, Eh What?

What a drag for the Sacrificial VICTIM.
Like one little ole bird ain't good enough for a Sacrifice?
Noah has to barbeque EVERY ODD CLEAN animal in sight?

Also seems to me that the Flood CAUSED a whole lot of INCREASED ENTROPY. In other words, there is NOT a whole lot of ORDER happening after a Flood, especially a Flood like Noah's Flood, Eh Jason?
You see, a regular flood can reseed real quick cuz there is LOTS of EXISTING VEGETATION.
What is going to RESEED the planet when EVERYTHING is DEAD Jason?
And Last, but I suspect NOT Least!
How LOW is the atmospheric OXYGEN LEVEL going to be with NO GREEN PLANTS?

Fire is getting low. Time to burn this here Soapbox.
Joe

175

Do you want the real truth or not?

by Jason in

jw
friends

on this website there seems to be so many lies and so little actual truth.

is this supposed to be a place to get answers or confuse the hell out of truth seekers?

well, for you seekers out there, if you find the truth on this site it'll be a major fluke.

Country Joe

Hey Jason,
Just saw Jurrasic Park 3 and I gotta say;
Dinasaurs on Noah's Ark?
BAD IDEA!!!
Can you imagine the havoc even a BABY T-Rex or a V-Rapture and their mates could do to all them animals destined to repopulate the world?
After a year on board the Ark, my guess is that even Noah would have become the equivalent of a Blue Plate Special.

Just what sort of cage do you suppose would keep them anyway, and forget Cypress wood.
Cast Bronze?
Yeah! That might work! At least till it quit raining.
I'm not thinking that they would be real Happy Campers for very long after eating much hay and a cup or two of grain.

I'm starting to think that one of the BEST things that ever happened to this planet was having that Asteroid strike near the Yucatan about 65 million years ago.
For that matter, I suppose Man would come in as the WORSE thing that ever happened to the planet.
OH Well! There ought to be another Asteroid along directly.

Meanwhile! If you go see the movie, see if you can get the make and model of that Cell Phone. That thing will stand up to ANYTHING.
Everytime I go to use mine, its always dead.

Do I believe in Macro-evolution you ask?
How do YOU define that exactly?
"Life originated and evolution proceeds by random chance"?
NO! Not so much!

"Life must have come from amino acids synthesized in the atmosphere and dissolved in a giant pond"?
Maybe Not!

"A process that results in inheritable changes in a population spread over many generations"?
I think that goes on all the time, Don't you?

Didn't YOU posit that the Ark contained all the Prototypes of our current diversification in order to save space?
If so, then you must believe in Evolution. Yes?

Do I believe in Thermodynamics?
Sure! My refrigerator and freezer work just fine.

As far as the Second Law of Thermodynamics go,
You said "the end result is chaos"
How about at the instant of Creation? Was that not Total Chaos also?
Yet Order did apparently arrive out of it, Yes?
If you want to make the current universe a "closed system" then entropy will increase causing a steady decline.
But isn't the Universe continually expanding?
In other words, Stars and what not are burning up, but yet NEW ONES are also being made. Yes?
If so, Then what is that entropy doing now?
Increasing? or Decreasing?

Question:
Before "The Fall", did death exist in the natural world?

175

Do you want the real truth or not?

by Jason in

jw
friends

on this website there seems to be so many lies and so little actual truth.

is this supposed to be a place to get answers or confuse the hell out of truth seekers?

well, for you seekers out there, if you find the truth on this site it'll be a major fluke.

Country Joe

Hi Larc,
I have to run off here directly, but here is some info that might help in the meantime.
Using the NIV "Cypress" for wood, in this case specifically "Bald Cypress" here is some data.
Height 100-120'or more
Diameter 3-5'rarely 10'or more
Deciduous
Habitat very wet swampy soils of riverbanks, floodplain lakes.
Called the "Wood Eternal" because of the heartwoods resistance to decay.
Used for heavy construction, including docks, warehouses, boats, Arks :o), bridges, as well as general millwork and interior trim.

You ought to be able to get a 24"X 24" beam out of a 36" diameter tree, but Cypress also flares at the bottom and tapers fairly fast. Also has a lot of branches so splitting would be a real drag except for maybe sticks to make cages.

Takes a hard days work to make a square beam say 8"x8" around 12-16'long with a good crosscut saw for scoring the round and a sharp broadaxe for hewing and later adzing if you want it to look nice. A good broadaxeman can usually skip the adzing.
The older method was to use the ax for scoring the round down which is just more hard work.
I would think an equally hard day, most likely more, to cut down a tree and then you still have to limb it out and then more major problems of getting it to the worksite.

Check this site out on ancient carpentry tools from Egypt.
http://nefertiti.freeyellow.com/egypt/trades/carpenters.htm

Will give you a good idea what sort of garbage they had for SAWS.
I think ALL the timbers would have to be hewed.
Thinner planks could be split and the heavier parts taken down to the thinnest dimension with the adz.
Earliest bronze tools date back to the 4th Dynasty which is Great Pyramid building days and a close time frame to the supposed Flood.
Theoretically, the Great Pyramid should have been under water.
If not, then a great civilization got up and running and got REAL Stupid in a hurry and REAL soon after the Flood.
There has got to be something wrong with folks that want to chisel LOTS of BIG Rocks into Cubes and then lug them all over hell and gone and then go and stack them all up nice and neat.
I would have Moved!
France maybe and grow grapes.

Also check this site out and tell me what you think.
www.flood-myth.com/ark.htm and also /flyer.htm and /contents.htm after the .com thingie.

Interesting info! If somebody did screwup by using the "cubit" measurement instead of the "span" measurement, then the Ark all of a sudden is halfway believable, within the building limits and tequniques of the period. Even still, the largest Egyptian barges much over 200' leaked like sieves.

Got to run!
Joe

175

Do you want the real truth or not?

by Jason in

jw
friends

on this website there seems to be so many lies and so little actual truth.

is this supposed to be a place to get answers or confuse the hell out of truth seekers?

well, for you seekers out there, if you find the truth on this site it'll be a major fluke.

Country Joe

Hey Jason
Sometime during a break from getting your head back together, would you mind looking up some stuff on Ice Core Drilling?
Try this link for a start and a pretty good overview.
Even has some science sounding like papers done up by the guys that are really into it.
www.glaciology.gfy.ku.dk/

You also can do a search on the deepest core drilled to date. The Vostok Ice Core in the Antarctic.
Obviously a new science and I have seen some conflicting data on the subject, but nonetheless, thousands of feet of ice ought to get you well past your Noachian epic with Noah and Son's Inc. floating around in Waterworld, Yes?
All sorts of cool stuff inside Ice Cores, Jason. Like gases from the atmosphere like carbon dioxide and methane all locked up in there along with all sorts of biotic material like fungi spores pollen and algae, blown in on the winds along with various soil particulates. Sounds like they can even figure out where the dust blew in from indicating wind direction and whatnot.
Even shows from the past any major volcanic activity which helps in the dating process of a certain layer.
Pretty Cool, Eh?
But even if you ain't into reading what all them little lines are and spectro analyzing or even learning what "ion chromatography" is or what a "tortuosity factor" might be, or maybe you don't even care to learn some cool new words like "dust flux" and "Firnication",(now theres a word you might not want to get a typo in while doing up your paper for submission to the Science Guy Fraternities, Eh what?);
The point being that if a Core Sample just zips on past a point in time, say like around 4000 odd years ago, there ought to be some evidence that Noah's Company breathed a whole lot of CO2 and CH4 while waiting for land to finally make an appearance. Yes?
I always thought that there were never enough windows in all them Ark depictions over the years.

No?
Of course you might argue that ANY Core sample WOULD all look the same since it is ALL Post Flood ice, Right?
In other words, ALL the Old Ice got lifted up off bedrock and floated away and melted, Right?
And since you think the earth is only 10 or 70 thousand years old, depending on who you hang with, the Ice Couldn't of been that thick at the poles to start with since it couldn't of snowed a whole lot cuz all the water vapor was hanging out in that Heavenly Ocean called the Canopy or Vapor Canopy being held up there by direct Divine Will just waiting around for everybody except Noah to come along and get good and evil so God could finally release the Vapor Canopy and Vaporize the planet, Right?
Therefore, ALL that snow and ice for THOUSANDS OF FEET is all there cuz it snowed a lot in the last 4000 years in order to relocate that Old Canopy thereby making a NEW Canopy of Ice and Snow at the poles, Right?
Therefore, in your view, they are just reading Post Flood Ice?

I read somewhere recently that the calculated air pressure on the surface with the weight of that "Heavenly Ocean" hanging just above in the atmosphere based, I believe, on 900 meters of depth to be in the neighborhood of 13,000psi.
Could this be True or did somebody forget to carry a 2?
At that pressure, I wonder how long it would take water to boil. Would I have to buy a Blast Furnace in order to make a cup of coffee in the morning?

Anyway, Get Well Soon!
Joe

175

Do you want the real truth or not?

by Jason in

jw
friends

on this website there seems to be so many lies and so little actual truth.

is this supposed to be a place to get answers or confuse the hell out of truth seekers?

well, for you seekers out there, if you find the truth on this site it'll be a major fluke.

Country Joe

Hi Riz,
Many Thanks for the kind words.
Seeing as this is my number 3 post, it was quite a compliment.

As I suspect EVERYONE wants the "real truth", the title of this thread certainly held a certain amount of intrigue.
Like WOW Man!!!Bout Time!!!Whup it on me!
And like a little kid in eager anticipation of his most hoped for Christmas present, we all open it up only to find..... yet another pair of socks.
Was Jason the Gateway Pentium 5000 with 1000Jigabite HD and 30 inch Flexscan Super High Res Color Monitor packaged with a free with every purchase Red Ryder Deluxe Limited Edition Aniversary Special Genuine BB-Gun Bearer?
Nah! Just Jason bearing socks.
Not to say that socks are not usefull.
Hell! I love socks.
But I have a few pair already. And unfortunately, all them socks, like many of Jasons "truths" will wear out in time or will find that Wormhole to Sock Heaven that seems to come with every dryer and at least one half of every pair seems to find.

I figure TRUTH ought to be like a bonifide Physical Law. Like Gravity say. You just know that if you throw your keys up in the air that they will come streight back down again and NOT sideways and make for the next county.
Or maybe even like Murphy's Law. You just know that if you throw your keys in the air and there is a house or a tree or a high fence nearby, your keys will make for those objects and you will be once more making excuses to the boss why you are late for work.

Thanks again,
Joe-still holding out for a Pentium 5000 with Red Ryder BB Gun, but I can always use another pair of socks.

175

Do you want the real truth or not?

by Jason in

jw
friends

on this website there seems to be so many lies and so little actual truth.

is this supposed to be a place to get answers or confuse the hell out of truth seekers?

well, for you seekers out there, if you find the truth on this site it'll be a major fluke.

Country Joe

Hey Jason,
You do your Young Earth relatives proud.
But!
With all of your carrying on and such, you seem to have left out an important detail.
Gen.6:13 and Gen.6:17
Here we got God saying that "I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to DESTROY ALL LIFE UNDER THE HEAVENS, EVERY CREATURE THAT HAS THE BREATH OF LIFE IN IT"
Not only that, HE said,
"EVERYTHING ON EARTH WILL PERISH"
And backing up a tad, HE also said,
"I am surely going to destroy both them and the EARTH.
Don't mind the caps, they are all mine.

Now Jason, you being a bible inerrantist and all, these ought to be sigificant statements.
In other words, where does it say that the FISH and Marine Mammals will get to LIVE while everthing else on the planet gets to die.
In other words, "ALL LIFE UNDER THE HEAVENS" would surely include Marine LIFE, Right?
"EVERYTHING ON EARTH WILL PERISH" pretty much includes, well... pretty much "EVERYTHING", wouldn't you say? As in "ALL LIFE UNDER THE HEAVENS".
Are you saying that this one little ole statement about "every creature that has the breath of life in it" is a DISCLAIMER for Marine critters?
How is it that only Land Based life forms only have "the breath of life" in it?
This ain't about that whole "nostrile" thing and what God breathed into ole Adam now, is it?
After all, fish have nostriles too, Right? And they DO BREATH, Right?
Does the "breath of life" automatically assumes the air above water?
What exactly is it that fish are breathing anyway, except air thats IN the water, right?
OK, So they weren't on the Invite List to be on the Ark.
Or were they?
According to GOD'S very own PROCLAMATION then, fish and whales and clams etc. etc. are DOOMED.
NO EXCEPTIONS in "Everthing on earth" and "All Life under the heavens" Right Jason?

Far as I'm concerned, this whole "breath of Life" deal applies to absolutely ANYTHING that lives. Including that lousy mosquito that just tried to drill a hole in me. It aint breathing too good at the moment.
Even plants have the "breath of life". They are just breathing different than we are. But they are no less ALIVE. Yes?
I got to take down a nice old sruce tree this fall cuz it up and died for no apparent reason. When it had "the breath of life" it was a beautifull tree. Now its just standing there all dead and dryed up and ugly looking. WHY? Cuz its SPIRIT or "rauch" or whatever you want to call it left for parts unknown. BUMS Me Out!

So did Noah screw up?
God said "two of EVERY kind of animal AND of EVERY kind of animal that moves along the ground. Surely Whales and Porposis and such could fall under that first group of animals. Whales and Porpose are intelligent and surely have "the breath of life" in them wouldn't you think?
But of course, Noah couldn't manage the care and feeding of such animals on board for a year.
Or did he?
Did Noah have Sea Life Park on board?
Or did God fib a bit and make exceptions?
Or do a Bill Clinton and redefine a few words like "Everything" and "All Life"

Something I don't get. Lots of things actually, but I'll start with this.
I've been a builder of things all my life. I love to create. Most times things turn out real good and I'm proud of it. Other things I made, especially during a learning curve say, didn't come out so hot and at worst, ended up in the wood stove.
The thing is, I didn't go and take all of them other things I built around here or go and call up everybody I gave something to in the past to have them mail it all back to me so as I can go and BURN THEM UP along with the ONE THING that I was disappointed with.

Now ain't that just what God is doing here with this whole Noah's Ark senario?
OK! So He wasn't too thrilled with this creation of His he up and called Man.
But in the past he was pretty pleased with his other creations.
So why in the Hell trash EVERYTHING in sight because of One bad creation.
Surely, just about anybody and their 5 year old could come up with ways as to just wipe out the offending creation while leaving everything else alone.
God has always been big on Plagues. Why not something like that? Why should animals and plants have to suffer for just hanging out doing whatever it is they were created to do.
I gotta say, God ain't making a whole lot of sense here.
And not only that, He is fixing on doing in YET AGAIN?
Yeah! I Know! God works in mysterious ways. Right! Heard that somewhere!

Man! What a guy has to do to get Saved around here.
Why, just look at all that nonsense he put poor old Noah through. Even at the sprightly age of 500 no less.
And here I am a mere child of 50 years of age and I'm thinking about changing my screen name to The Celebrex Kid.

I take it you have never tried to make a single beam or even a single plank from out of a tree with just some good hand tools.
As in NO POWER, that is.
Having done the above, I couldn't help but wonder what it was like to use whatever Noah had to work with for tools.
We are proabably talking bronze here or at best some crappy iron cutting tools? Right?
I mean, this is all happening AFTER we see good old Tubal Cain beating on bronze and iron back in Gen.4:22, Right?
So we know, at least, we got some iron of some sort or other happening.
But, even with the best of todays high carbon tool steel plane irons and saws, it don't take too long before you are back at the sharpening stones and files.
Bronze and low to no carbon iron were never noted for holding an edge.

But yet here we are, with Noah and the boys building a freaking Battleship size boat along with everything in it?
Do you know how much cutting and splitting and cutting and planing that is?
Or adzing and hewing?
Or drilling and pegging?
Caulking and pitching?
You think a couple of 5 gallon buckets of "Pitch" be enough to coat the entire Ark with "INSIDE AND OUT"?

And how big of a forest of this Gopher or Cypress wood had to get mowed down for the cause?
The NIV mentions the wood to be used as Cypress.
On top of everything else these guys had to do, does this mean they also had to go out into a freaking snake and croc infested Swamp in order to get all the wood they needed?
How much of the Okeefenokee Swamp would be left if somebody did that today?
Never mind they had a Hundred Years to do it in. That don't make it any easier on your muscels and joints.
Fact is, its tearing them up.
Did God see fit to prevent them from having any down time from sprains or maybe a broken bone or two?
If so, then why not just drop a HUGE pile of perfectly milled and seasoned timber on them like He did in that phoney dumbass TV version
of "Noah's Ark" and let them save their bodies for the more important stuff like repopulating the planet with more of the same Stupid and Crappy Creation that went and got their dumbasses Uncreated in the first place.
And what was up with Lot in that stupid show anyway?
Wasn't he suppose to be like NOT BORN YET?
Yet here he is trying to do a Captain Kid number on the Ark with his merry band of Pirates.
What an Idiot! What was he thinking? And he being a "Righteous man" and all too?
Oh well! I guess he weren't any more or less Righteous than his real life counterpart offering up his daughter's to a crowd of Gay Guys and then latter getting plastered and getting them pregnant with his very own grandchildren.
At least it saved Lot all that hasel of having to find Son in Laws that he could actually like.
Who knew that it would catch on?

Something else too.
Noah was somewhere in the middle east presumably when he got into this whole mess of a project to begin with, Right?
Now along comes the big Flood and carrys off Noah and Company for a funfilled year long cruise on the high seas just floating around with the currents and such. Yet strangely, they land smack dab in the general viscinity from whence they started their big adventure?
Namely the Middle East?
Interesting coincidence, don't you think?
The entire world to float around in and yet they arrived within relative spitting distance to where they started?
Hmmmmm! Sounds suspiciously like a well contrived Middle Eastern bedtime story for little Middle Eastern kiddies.

Just a few thoughts I thought I would throw on the fire for ya'll.
OK! Well its time to call in the dogs and put out the fire.
Joe

Canopy Stuff for YK

by Country Joe in

jw
friends

howdy!.

you know said in a post with alanf a while back,.

"since the creation came about by the same word of god that called the canopy into existence, we can rightly assume that the heavenly ocean, or canopy, also behaved under the current laws of physics, just as the rest of creation.".

Country Joe

Howdy!

You Know said in a post with AlanF a while back,
"Since the creation came about by the same word of God that called the canopy into existence, we can rightly assume that the heavenly ocean, or canopy, also behaved under the current laws of physics, just as the rest of creation."

I thought that was an interesting statement and thought maybe YK could explain a few things about it.

For example:
I would think that in order to cover the Earth to the height of the highest mountain from current sea level, this "heavenly ocean" would be GREATER than the current volume of water. As the regular ocean is pretty shallow in a lot of places, maybe even twice as much water would be needed.
Be a good question to ask the Ocean Guys.
OK! So we got a lot of water somewhere above earth.
Well, if this heavenly ocean "behaved under current laws of physics" I reckon it would have to be located in Outer Space. Right?
The only other choice would be in the atmosphere somewhere and if all that water was going to precipitate as rain over 40 days and nights, it would also have to be below freezing. Yes?
I would think that "current laws of physics" wouldn't allow for that seeing as how GRAVITY might be one of them there "current laws". Ya Think?
OK! So assuming all that heavenly ocean water is in space floating around, How would enough light penetrate to the earth, so all them other Creation type objects like plants, trees, animals, bugs, Folks etc. etc.,can survive?
Not to mention the lack of heat.
In other words, Nude Beaches will have to wait till later when things warmed up a tad.
Seems to me that this Heavenly Ocean thing is messing up the whole planetary dynamics.
Sort of a strange thing for a Creator to go and Create so that it could go and Un-Create everthing that this here Creator Feller went and spent 6 whole days Creating in the first place. Ya Think?

So then, at some point in time around four thousand years give or take a few minutes, this "Heavenly Ocean" decided to re-enter the atmosphere therby causing this Flood that took out everything created up to that point in time, except of course, Noah and Company?
And ALL of that water fell over a 40 day period?

You Know postulated that this amazing event was the cause of the Ice Age.
In other words, a COOLING Trend occured by a unfathomable amount of water re-entering the atmosphere as ICE and ALL of it turning to STEAM.
With the "current laws of physics" in mind, Alan countered with the exact opposite effect which would wipe out ALL living things, including Noah and Company.

So YK, you have an interesting delema if you are going to accept this Canopy as a valid fact of nature operating under "current laws of physics"

Another Question for ya'll!
Given the fantastic water pressures, how do you JW guys figure all them caves that are close to the surface such as found in Kentucky, Tenneessee and Virginia, survived being collapsed.
You may surmise they were the result of FLOOD runoff water, as you did the Grand Canyon, but that still don't account for the formations existing in the caves. And nothing but dripping water to form them too, as in NO wind and weather errosion.
Ever been in a Really Cool cavern YK?
You really believe that those fabulous formations of solid Columns and Curtains formed in the paltry 4 thousand years since the Big Flood supposedly took place?

Joe